Luke 17 – Somewhat normal lives up until Jesus’ return?
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January 8, 2022 at 4:40 pm #2089Jonathan EParticipant
Hello,
I did not find in any of the articles in “Rapture’ False Hope:” adressing Luk 17, maybe I missed it? Or maybe it isnt adressed there. It is a passage used in favour of the pre-trib position. It is claimed that since people prior to Jesus return are living ordinary everyday lives, this cannot be set in the tribulation, therefore, it is prior to it.
I also have additional qestions from this passage. A summary is listed at the bottom.Luke 17:22 – 37
_____________3.
In the context Jesus is anwering the question of the pharasees when the kingdom of God will arrive.
He answers them with this:
“The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed,
21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”but he then goes on to talk about the second coming (where the Kingdom of God will be established on earth) and this is obviously something “that can be observed”.
I think I understand that the kingdom of God represents a way of life which is seen among poeple when on his spirit and will is allowed to permeate everything. But obviously the arrival of God’s kingdom is something that will be observed.___________
1.
Jesus says that the times just prior to his return, will be like in the days of Noah or Lot: People were living their lives and suddenly destruction came upon them. The parables from OT at first hand led me to believe that people in the last days will be doing the same things as they did, that is: eating, drinking, marrying, building etc. But perhaps he was just likening the unpreparedness of those people? Because this kind of living is hard to square with the judgment of God being poured out on most(?) people who have recieved the mark of the beast.
A few verses on Jesus has move on from Noah and Lot and says that “in that night” one of two people in the same bed will be taken, one of two women grinding will be taken, a man on the housetop will leave his goods behind and another one in the field will not turn back.
here also, people seem to be living normal lives up until the return of Christ. It says this will be going on “On that day” which is “the day when the Son of Man is revealed.”v.30-31.
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If the taking away is the result of Jesus’ return, why does it seem like the events of 4 examples here are events happening at diffrent times of the day? That is: “in that night” compared to the man in the field or the women grinding. The two latter are scenarios which take place during the day.
I also wonder what “taken away means”?___________
Summary of questions with numerical priority:
1. Why does it seem like people are living ordinary lives up until the day Jesus returns when Revelation talks about people being tormented?
2a. Why does the 4 scenarios happen at diffrent times of the day when Jesus’ return is happening at a moment.
2b. What does “taken away” mean?3. Why does Jesus say that the coming of the kingdom of God cannot come in a way that is observed?
//Jonathan
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January 8, 2022 at 8:42 pm #2103TimothyKeymaster
Jonathan,
Welcome to the forum.
#1. The point of the statement, “eating and drinking” etc. was not to show a world that is not in turmoil, but the unexpectedness of Jesus coming for the majority of mankind which does not believe the prophecies. They live as though the end is not upon them. Paul made it clear in 1 Thess. 5 that destruction will overtake the wicked “like a thief in the night” but that alert Christians will not be surprised by Jesus’ return.
#2. Notice in verse 26 Jesus referred to “the days (plural) of the Son of Man.” Notice also that the examples of Noah and of Lot was not of an instantaneous deliverance. The deliverance from God’s wrath took some time. Compare Luke 17:31 with Matthew 24:15-22 where the same warning clearly refers to the mind-point of the tribulation, and concerns Christians fleeing from Judea at the time of the abomination of desolation. Revelation 12 also portrays this as the “woman” fleeing into the wilderness to a place of God’s provision while the final plagues of wrath are poured out. Isaiah described this also in the following words: “Come, my people, enter into your rooms, And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while, Until indignation runs its course. For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed, And will no longer cover her slain.” (Isa. 26:20-21 NASB).
IMO, Luke 17:26-37 is about believers fleeing to safety with supernatural assistance. It is clear that they have the option to go back from the field, or collect their belongings, since they are commanded not to do this. It is also compared to “Lot’s wife,” who while fleeing on foot to safety, looked back. This is a warning. It certainly does not apply to a “rapture.”
The word “taken” does not mean snatched away. It means to be received near into one’s presence, to be included within a private group (cf. Matt. 17:1). This refers to the collective group whom God will preserve during that time of great tribulation.
#3. Luke 17:20-21 (NASB) 20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
The first thing you should notice is that in Jesus’ answer He indicated that the Kingdom was already present, “in your midst“ (not “within you” as in the KJV/NKJV). That it was not coming “with observation” means that it was not visible or apparent at that time while it was already present among them. In what way was the Kingdom present? It was in the person of Christ Himself, the King.
John the Baptist had previously sent messengers to inquire of Jesus if He was the Messiah. Jesus’ rather cryptic answer helps to understand His statement in Luke 17 to the scribes and Pharisees. Remember, Jesus always spoke to His antagonists in riddles, but plainly to His disciples (See: Mark 4:11-12,33-34).
Luke 7:20-22 (NASB) 20 And when the men had come to Him, they said, “John the Baptist has sent us to You, saying, ‘Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?'” 21 At that very time He cured many people of diseases and afflictions and evil spirits; and He granted sight to many who were blind. 22 And He answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have the gospel preached to them.
The reason Jesus pointed to His miracles to implicitly answer John’s question is because of the prophecy of Isaiah 35:5-6 which is clearly speaking of the Kingdom in the context. “5 Then the eyes of the blind will be opened, And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. 6 Then the lame will leap like a deer, And the tongue of the dumb will shout for joy.” The same thing occurs in Isaiah 61:1-3. ” The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, And freedom to prisoners; 2 To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD, And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn, 3 To grant those who mourn in Zion, Giving them a garland instead of ashes, The oil of gladness instead of mourning, The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting. So they will be called oaks of righteousness, The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.” Jesus essentially told them that the proof was right in front of them. The exact miracles which will be universal in the Kingdom were being demonstrated on a small scale. Even the Gospel being preached to them, which Jesus was doing, was just a small demonstration to the state in the Kingdom described in Isaiah 2:2-3 & Isaiah 11:9.
Consider also the message that Jesus told His disciples to proclaim when He sent them out two by two ahead of Him to announce the Gospel within the cities of Judah.
Luke 10:7-11 (NASB) 8 “And whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat what is set before you; 9 and heal those in it who are sick, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 “But whatever city you enter and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your city which clings to our feet, we wipe off in protest against you; yet be sure of this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’
The Kingdom of God is near when the King is near. It is present “among you” when Jesus stood in their midst. This in no sense means that the Kingdom, as greatly elaborated upon in the prophets, is not literally coming. It is indeed coming, and when it comes at that time it will be with “observation” including a host of celestial signs.
Luke 21:25-31 (NASB) 25 “And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and upon the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 “And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” 29 And He told them a parable: “Behold the fig tree and all the trees; 30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 “Even so you, too, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.”
So the point is this: When Jesus’ antagonists demanded that He tell them when the Kingdom would come, He deflected. He knew they were asking about the physical Kingdom. But instead of answering them directly, He indicated that all of the Kingdom that they would see was right in front of them, in their midst. Yet, in vs. 22-25 Jesus turned to His disciples and clearly acknowledged that the Kingdom would indeed come with observation “like lightening” later, after His rejection by Israel.
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January 14, 2022 at 11:00 am #2147Jonathan EParticipant
Thank you. I have missed the forum!
#2
You are right, Matt 24:15-22 is obviously a parallell-passage. And all the fleeing-language seems to be there. I got stuck on ” the day when the Son of Man is revealed.” v.30 and ”on that day” v.31 which no doubt seems to refer to the actual day Jesus returns.
What do we do with these words?#3. I would guess the pre-tribbers would say that all christians could be ”received near into Jesus´s presence”.
Thank your for clarifying what the king being present means. If the the kingdom being present means the kingdom of God is near, could we say that the kingdom of God is still in our midst since Jesus is present through the spirit in the congregation?
//Jonathan
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January 14, 2022 at 1:33 pm #2151TimothyKeymaster
In the Olivet Discourse Jesus referred to the “day and hour,” not as the calendar date and time on the clock, but as equivalent to a “watch” which was an extended period not a point in time. The following post described this fully.
Yes, in the assembly we are in the “Kingdom” in the same way, in the presence of the King. While Jesus is not yet “King” of the nations, He is the “head” of the “body.” So the Assembly is supposed to be a microcosm of the Kingdom.
Eph. 1:22-23
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,
23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
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